EP3: Peter Sapienza

Peter Sapienza is a visionary digital business strategist and Founder Of C-Fire  an emerging leader in immersive and  engaging creative technologies. Before He was the guy crafting the business strategy for the Sphere at the Venetian as VP of Strategy at the legendary Obscura Digital. His early experience as a petroleum engineer combined with serial entrepreneurship has put him “in the room” at some pretty interesting moments…

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squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 0:01

with the Salesforce waterfall, people walk by and just stop, they're stunned. They can't tell if it's real or if it's an illusion. They, they think Salesforce is wasting water. There were all these complaints and calling, just startling to watch and it's it's not just a shock value thing. It's actually, you know, you know, bringing the power of nature into A built environment lobby it's something that can calm you or surprise you or, you know, just give you a new perspective.

Lee Ann 1:04

Peter, thank you so much for coming on and um, being willing to tell me about your journey in this space. Nice to see you. Great to see you, Lee Ann. Really to you connect again. And I'm glad to talk with you. Yeah. Well, it's, it's been a minute. We, we met each other when I was, um, running marketing at ESPN and you were, at Disney in the digital space and you and a couple of other people came forward and We're proposing creating this sort of separate unit at ESPN to serve the X Games, which I was a big fan of because I had shown so much X Games, um, advertising work where the leadership would look at it and go, I hate it. I was like, yeah, are you a 14 year old boy? No. So your idea and the thing that you pushed, which was just in the sort of the wake of Disney acquiring, ESPN. That was a, that was a bold thing. How tell me how you got there to that moment. So yes, I remember working together on that was just such an exciting project and how I got to that moment was I've been working at Patagonia for four years doing, uh, clothing, sportswear for athletes and different kinds of. I guess hardcore dirtbags we call them, but just the real authentic gritty athletes and then the people that were influenced by them and how they wanted to live their life and what kind of clothes they wanted to wear. And so I had a friend that had been hired at the Disney Internet Group In the day and his mission was to take the X games and put it online on the digital. And so, uh, exactly online on the internet. And so, uh, yes, I volunteered as employee number two and I left my amazing job at Patagonia and went over to Disney internet group. And. It was really fun because we were like the, the pirates and not the Navy. And we shared your vision where the main goal was to create something authentic that was more of a, uh, digitized internet platform version of the X games that could be shared and, um, had some two way communication between the audience and the athletes and take all the amazing visual assets from video and television and put them on this thing called the internet, but it was great because we. We brought in all these new athletes that were kind of these underground guys, like Mike Valeli, who was a skateboarder that had this poetry called the written word. And we recruited across all this Patagonia kind of athletes and just younger, influential, less commercial, more kind of, traveling, you know, dirtbag surfers and skateboarders and things like that. Chris Malloy that later went on to become a Patagonia brand ambassador, but he started with the X Games with what we called it EXPN back then. So it really was, you know, A little bit counterculture and it was I remember working with you and we flew out to New York and we were talking with ESPN Internet Ventures and coordinating and collaborating on how to make this thing real but It's a fascinating story. We presented it to Bob Iger and Michael Eisner in a small conference room just trying to understand how to Engage the next generation of of

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 4:13

audience that was, currently

Lee Ann 4:15

was, it, it was really important at that time too, because, both, uh, ESPN and Disney It just wasn't core to what they were about at the time and it was all new, right? Right. I remember Red Bull. We had the Red Bull sponsor, the athlete lounge of X Games, and then it hit this big controversy because Mountain Dew was actually the sponsor of the X Games. So there were those where in order to make it core, you had to really push up against some of the corporate assumptions. And I remember having that. Arguments with the Disney advertising team and, you know, various aspects that just didn't get it. They wanted the United States Navy and the Don't Smoke campaign to be the prime sponsors of the X Games. And, uh, you know, that was a little bit counter to the, the target audience at the Yeah. Yeah. you were really sharpening those skills back then, because in this space of sort of generative art and immersive experience and the use of technology, that sort of through line of technology was always there and the through line of storytelling. Was always there because, one of your first experiences professionally was as an account planner So talk about the Mac daddy of storytelling and being an account planner for people who don't know is really, it's like, uh, being a futurist in a way about a brand to figure out where. Where it's going, and you worked with legends. Do you want to talk a little bit about, about that storytelling, that early beginning in storytelling? Yes. So I did work as an account planner at Chiat Day with Lee is the 1984 mastermind. And so I worked on a campaign. It was for a wireless telecom account with Lee Clow and Adam Morgan. And so Adam Morgan's the guy that wrote the book about, um, the challenger brands and how to be a challenger brand. And he is Yeah. account planner and Lee Clow is just other level, you know, and he worked with Jessica Shulman and a couple other people on those teams. I felt like I was working in a pantheon of legends and we pitched and, you know, gained all this new business and this wireless telecom account. Ironically, the key insight on that one back in the day was alienation index was on the rise and the technology was able to people counter this idea of being alienated, which looking back, uh, in time, it's a fascinating Yeah. you know, technology has alienated a lot of people, but at the same time, it has allowed people to reconnect in different ways. So, uh, some. Really a good influence on my career and just looking at the kinds of universal truths and paradoxes that that drive some of these communications decisions and this creativity. even earlier than your time at Chiat Day, you were, working as a petroleum engineer and, that even has influenced sort of the framework that you framework of thinking that you bring can you talk a little bit about that? And then I'm going to switch over to what you, what you're up to now. Yeah. exploration engineer were very influential and very informative. I spent two years in the oil exploration business in North Africa and Europe, and I really did, at everything through the idea of a geologic lens. You know, how is this put together? What are the strata stratigraphic layers? How has it been faulted folded over thrusts moved? You know, where's the sandstone? Where's the shale? Where's the granite? Where's the oil? Where's the gas and and just figuring out reverse engineering through these structures and being able to Keep all that straight, It's been influential in how I, like you mentioned, create a framework for how I think about things really in this earth sciences, um, know, storytelling way that that's structural and it's, it's oriented around the platform and that that scientific and earth sciences thinking stays with me even to this day on how to, you know, interpret and discover solutions to these challenges at the intersection of art, technology and digital product and marketing and strategy. So it all comes together in a new way. I would imagine it makes you sensitive to wanting to have a complete set of insights across a variety of different dimensions so that nothing gets missed. And, currently, you lead immersive technology partnerships and emerging technology for CFIRE and that's a company you founded, correct? C Fire is a company

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 8:32

that I founded, uh, coming out of Obscura Digital, which was one of these leaders of emerging experience, uh, technologies and content. And so C Fire, C is the speed of light and fire represents the passion of ideas. So, uh, really what we're What I wanted to do with C Fire and with my partners is just take that idea of using emerging technologies, using immersive experience to become more structurally solid, to become more standardized and to be able to actually start to influence brand results and have a before, during and after and all these kinds of experiences. And I found over the years is all these experiences. And art and technology seem to be led by these geniuses or people who have a vision. And a theme throughout their career, but it's almost a one off when it gets released to the public, unless, you know, over years they can amass people's art and put it into collections and show it in a museum. But normally, you know, these burning man exhibitions or some genius machine learning code will be developed by these, these really, um, talented individuals. But it's. it's. actually great to put those stories into context and then have them have some effect on business and society. And so, um, I think with C Fire, we wanted to standardize these things. So it wasn't just a one off. It wasn't just, Hey, we had had this big event. There was no lead up and no follow through, but

Track 1 9:49

C

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 9:50

Fire we want to make it easily available to learn what's going on in advance and then enjoy it while it's happening and then carry on after, And also just to generate some, some results, you know, move the needle on whether it's brand engagement or attracting more customers or, um, you know, wowing people and welcoming them so that they have a memorable experience and share it, encourage advocacy. So just thinking of that in the business context, art and technology. Instead of just as a low level one off

Track 1 10:19

your success speaks for itself. I mean, I think you were leadership at Obscura and Obscura really was. Kind of the driving force behind the business case for the sphere. Is that, is that accurate?

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 10:33

that is accurate. In fact, obscura was purchased by Madison square garden in 2017 with the expressive purpose of just developing the creative vision and technology kind of, um, system diagram and experience. plan for the sphere. So at that time, uh, yeah, I had been at Obscura since about 2014 or so. And then, uh, our team, the entire Obscura team was engaged on figuring out what to do with the sphere. In fact, the call came in from Madison Square Garden because they had seen the Salesforce waterfall. Which is a project that our team at C Fire a lot of great Obscura artists had led at the time. And then that was just the idea that pixels could be used to tell a story and create these illusions and experiences. So Madison Square Garden was intrigued. They ended up talking to Obscura, they bought Obscura, and then shifted a lot of the team over, over the years into the sphere. And there's a couple of them left, a couple of the original Obscura team left on Madison Square Garden Sphere. The OG, exactly. it was super exciting. just the idea to take this immersive rooms and projection rooms and, uh, LED walls that we'd been working on and just see it come together in that format is really incredible. I remember putting together some initial business models. of, you know, how do you break even on this thing? How many performances, how many butts and seats, what kind of timeframe and run would that take to actually break even and how many shows would you need? So it's fascinating to just see it come to life and just be its own very iconic presence in the world.

Track 1 12:08

Right. I would imagine the artists themselves, particularly with this

Lee Ann 12:11

model at C Fire, which is,

Track 1 12:13

is almost validating. the sort of, um, the rationale for investment. Um, I would imagine the artists, like the fine artists, the people who are sort of really creating the visionary sort of, um, aesthetics, um, love finding somebody like you, because it means that it can, can sort of open the door for them. To express themselves and to, to find the right partners to continue to create their work. Is that, has that been your experience? Do you have relationships with artists? Are you, kind of scheming for the future with certain people?

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 12:48

Yeah, first of all, I love the way you think. I think it's, it's good to think of it like that as a valuable platform for artists and for investment. And I think that's our original vision is really to become this platform or this, clearing ground where artists can come and get recognized for what they're doing, because the kind of artists that we're talking about are usually these. Um coders or you know, kind of burning man people super talented, but there's no Readily available digital art market or a digital physical or immersive art market for them so it really is, you know between obscura and moment factory and A bunch of the original kind of experiential agencies and C Fire we are really putting an emphasis on attracting and retaining the right talent and we work with a great group of folks who from our network over the years that we always try to get them work and try to get them paid at their, you know, full market rate and really make sure that they get the recognition that They deserve. it's difficult to standardize this immersive world just due to the fact that nobody knows how to monetize it. There's no digital marketing person that has in their line item budget, you know, immersive lobby displays or usual or, you know, immersive effects during an event. So usually it really is. You know, we found that CFIRE, across the board, we have to do a lot of educating, a lot of, proposing, you know, this is, this is the right idea. here's three cost ranges of what this might require, because oftentimes it's complicated for the artists to tell that story on a holistic basis, and the clients, uh, don't necessarily have immersive and experiential built into their budgets yet, but it's, it, it is, you know, That's the opportunity. We are seeing the demand increase, and we are seeing the market share grow, and we are seeing our business grow, which is very exciting.

Track 1 14:37

I, I mean, one of the pieces that really jumped out at me was this, installation you guys did at Macau. Tell me like, who is the artist, what was the moment?

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 14:45

So MGM Macau has a property called MGM Cotai, which is a five star luxury resort with a huge atrium with all these, um, you know, great restaurants and luxury shops. And I mean, they sell Lamborghinis and beautiful clothing and it's on the way into this gorgeous casino and a great resort. So. In the Obscura days, they had built a, an LED system around this atrium of 25 giant LED screens, extra large. And so, uh, that was a project that, that I led and our whole team, uh, implemented when I was at Obscura to do the first project in the MGM Kotai atrium called Windows of the World. And what it was, was to bring these stunning, very high resolution videography from China to show, you know, the great beautiful aspects of things going on, celebrations, festivals, nature, animals, uh, and then also it was a chance to bring content from the around the world into that atrium. So flash to, uh, several years later and

Track 1 15:47

C Fire.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 15:49

Has continued to work with MGM Resorts and MGM, uh, Kotai and MGM Macau after the Obscura days. And so we were engaged to do something special, which was a celebration between, um, the handover of Macau to China. And they wanted a watercolor story and we wanted to do something Different and multidimensional. And so we work with one of our partners at C Fires, an artist, a light space artist who's renowned in his work. His name is Zheng Chongbing, He got his background in traditional ink brush painting, and so very classical kind of, ancient techniques, pure materials, but since he's evolved into, um, uh, I guess you'd call it abstraction and more of a, uh, Western Eastern, uh, intersection of abstractions, the work behind me is actually by Zhang Chongbing, and he had his works featured in, many museums and public places worldwide. And now he's starting to, uh, evolve into a really well known light space artist. So he's done big video walls, installations, very different kinds of materials and using light as the media itself. And it really, aligns well with our overall philosophy. And what we were talking about is this geologic. History and, you know, the intersections of nature and biology and scale and different ways, different perspectives. So it's actually a fantastic Alignment to have Changbin on our team So he he helped us to figure out, you know The the goal for this Macau China handover story which was to be launched during Chinese New Year So it had to be very ceremonial, very timeless, very, um, engaging to both Chinese and Macanese people. And so, um, you know, with the help of Chongbin, we went deep to researching the subject matter. And we looked at the ink brush strokes. We looked at the actual colors, the pigments, my other business partner, Nick Lynch went into Chinatown and found the exact kind of pigmentation that we needed for the traditional inks and, Chongbin painted About 10 different paintings with just different seascapes, landscapes, cranes, boats, shipwrecks, sharks, fish, all these incredible icons that are recognizable to both China and Macau. And then, you know, the main challenge was how to figure out how to do 10 minutes worth of content on this massive, 25 screens and

Track 1 18:12

Huge, right? Like

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 18:14

huge. so people are like this and the screens are

Track 1 18:16

Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 18:17

and they're in every direction. So, uh, it was, it was quite a challenge and, you know, you talked about how theater, the intersection of some art, art and technology verges on theater. And we really took that approach where, okay, this is a 10 minute theatrical piece, act one, act two and act three. Act one was about the color red and about beautiful cranes taking off and flying into the mountains and act two was about the turquoise ocean in the harbor between Macau and Hong Kong. And so that was turquoise. And they were, um, Shipwrecks representing Portuguese sailing vessels and things like this. There was a lot of action in that bay. So we represented, you know, the turquoise ocean scape and then act three was this deep, deep cerulean blue with these sailing vessels. It's very traditional. kind of boats and ships that you would see sailing the harbor. And so that was the 10 minutes. And then we made it so it came to life. It painted itself and the icons painted themselves just like Changbin had done in the studio, but extra large. And then we animated them. So they came to life and started taking off in dimensions and three dimensions. And we, um, you know, You know, made the guests feel like they were a part of this inkbrush painting coming, coming to life around them, and it was really, um, satisfying, and the client contributed as well. The client, MGM Kotai, who we've worked with for years, contributed some music that, uh, was timeless and they knew would, would, would, you know, Match the artwork and attract their guests. So the whole experience is just really unique and it is art. It's the non commercial brand experience that really makes a memorable

Track 1 19:53

Yeah. those kinds of moments in that kind of a business creates a sort of an inevitability that you would do something like that, right? but when you have a client that thinks they want to do it and but doesn't exactly understand all the dimensions, what, how do you walk them up to being comfortable, uh, with taking the leap of making this kind of an investment?

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 20:16

we found that we have a full range of clients, as you mentioned, so there's some clients who are already there and they get it. They understand they want some groundbreaking art or they want an experience. It's going to be recognized, remembered when an award or just be so immersive that that they're going to get recognized for it. Other clients are a little bit more timid. And Um, you know, there are two answers is one is, uh, you definitely worked to To increase the knowledge of some of the clients that we work with to understand the benefits of being more immersive, more artistic, less commercial, um, more, uh, place making. So that's one thing is, you know, kind of building the relationship through multiple iterations and kind of evolving them to, to get more. Um, I guess daring or more risk taking with some of their projects because it does pay off in terms of impressions, eyeballs, public relations, social media shares, etc. So there is a return on investment on many of these Public immersive experiences. Um, there are also some extensions on that, which I should talk about in a minute too, in terms of how to take, you know, something like MGM Macau and bring it then into the metaverse and use, you know, the blockchain and web three to expand that experience and create ongoing value on, on some of these kinds of digital assets. So that's another, uh, element of the learning that CFIRE and our team does to our our clients. Um, there's another. There's another scenario in which the client is just simply not ready to go there due to it's very conservative or the regulatory environment. Um, and then that case, we just offer a scaled version of our offering. You know, there, a lot of people just start with nature or just something very simple, very beautiful, you know, just a big, beautiful, uh, dimensional looking. Foray into nature will do wonders cost effective and easy. And then once they see the reaction, they expand their, their relationship with us. And We have an amazing client at the Odessa Brown Children's Clinic at Seattle Children's Hospital. And That's exactly how we started with them as we offered, you know, just our content from nature just to be distributed across their video walls for no charge for three months and they saw the effect it had on people and patients and caregivers were just, you know, stopping in the lobby going, wow, this is amazing. And subsequently, um, they saw the value of going a little bit deeper. So now we do. Some amazing things there. We're putting public health messages, um, holiday celebrations, events on the property, branded experiences related to the Odessa Brown Children's Clinic. She was an amazing woman that founded the clinic against all odds. And it's in a, a neighborhood that's underserved and it really is great. It, it serves patients and caregivers in five languages. So Chinese, Vietnamese, Somalian, Spanish, and English. Uh, and so we, we do all the video wall content across three screens and multiple locations, that's a, a playlist and a mix of various kinds of useful information and experience all day. So,

Track 1 23:23

nature is such a healing force and it sounds like what you did was something that is very simple and somewhat obvious but doesn't happen enough, which is Let's make our product beautiful, welcoming, soothing, healing on a, on a higher level by using the resources that we already have in and populating them with images of nature.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 23:44

the interesting, you mentioned systems and systems thinking, and that's exactly the kind of. Reason that we're able to share that nature content. So cost effectively with people. That, you know, are interested in exploring this world because we did create this platform called the C Fire. It's a content library, and it's hundreds at this point, going on to thousands of works that have been filmed by our network of videographers, and it's accessible and it's easy. You basically just scan through a web page and figure out you can look for forests, mountains, streams, animals, etc. And there's some digital art in there, too. And then just select it. And Pretty easy formatting just to go from that high resolution. Nature content library into someone's video wall. So, um, we're trying to scale it up, make it easy to, to acquire that kind of experience. we're also working on a project that takes that now to the next level, which. You know, and it's kind of scientific digital marketing, uh, or brand experience parlance would be to develop a branded avatar, like a three dimensional, um, basically like a video game character that is imbued with conversational artificial intelligence that then lives in the metaverse behind the video walls. And every once in a while, this avatar, in this case, it would be a cute kind of a comfort animal for Seattle children's hospital comes out and Talks to the kids and welcomes caregivers and families, and, uh, can also, uh, extend into a fully conversational artificial intelligence, um, avatar that, and the use cases for that are really, uh, you know, in our mind, exciting because it's to become the branded experience of the future where it can tell the brand story, it can interact with customers, it can become customer service, it can, you know, um, recommendations, there are a lot of regulatory compliance issues and, and, kind of, uh, sensitivities. So, you know, we make sure that there's, Very strict and relevant guardrails on each of these applications. So, you know, for a retail environment, it would be different than a hospital, but the hospital is exciting to, to now start to introduce some communication and, really, um, cute, beautiful characters that can help, uh, kids and families through tough times, just by being exciting and fun to look for in these video wall scenes. But it's interesting and great to start mixing, um, Whether it's artificial intelligence or web three, uh, and the ideas of extending you know, previously static or slightly interactive video scenes now into being able to extend the cross platform into, you know, um, virtual reality, augmented reality onto your own, computer. So, uh, but having it in physical space is really powerful.

Track 1 26:33

Yeah. Well, I mean, and it's also in a way, doing it at a hospital is very ambitious because it is a highly regulated environment. And it's almost like if you can figure out how to thread the needle and do it there and have it, auger positively towards the hospital brand and, Make people feel more welcome or more informed or or less confused at a moment where they're under a lot of stress. Um, that's pretty exciting for you guys and you, you talked about, placemaking, the metaverse blockchain and branded avatars, and that all sort of is what you've been discussing right now. how ready are businesses to kind of go that deep, in your experience, or are they beginning to understand that they need to think that way? Or is it only the ones that have deep pockets and are already in sort of the hospitality entertainment space that are getting it? Or do you have some new ones that are starting to sort of be hungry for this kind of.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 27:28

Yeah, it's a it's a good question. there are a lot of people who are willing to take some risks in experimenting on the before, during and after of the immersive experiences, and there are a lot of people who won't go there at all, uh, you know, a lot of the clients that we work with. They are, they're already buying the digital physical placemaking part of it. And so, um, they are interested in, in extending that. So MGM Cotai, for example, um, and we've partnered with, with a metaverse art gallery company, uh, and they have a platform called X verso. And so we've taken some of the, the, assets and digital experiences that were the source assets from the MGM Cotai experience, and now offering those as NFTs. On this platform. Exverso that also had an immersive gallery event in Switzerland and and on the metaverse. And so, um, you know, that's been exciting for for all the participants in that project from start to finish. So that's one example of extending digital art from a place into the metaverse into the blockchain and Web three and being able to share that across across a broader audience. There is. A lot of speculation and, you know, fear about diving too deep into something like Web3 or the blockchain for a lot of clients at this point. I know luxury brands like LVMH's companies are, are excited about, um, you know, digitizing and the branding and putting a lot of Elements of their brand assets in the web three. I came back from a conference in Paris called NFT Paris recently. Um, you know, and, and interacted with a lot of people, had some great conversations and, uh, that was, uh, there's a lot of fashion and art and gaming applications already to blockchain and web three in terms of peer to peer commerce and authentication of digital assets. And in a world where ironically, on the one side of the equation, there's artificial intelligence driving. The ability to, you know, create and generate massive amounts of new content and it's becoming more and more difficult to tell what's real and what's, uh, you know, imagined or what's generated. And then on the other hand, there's blockchain, which is striving to, um, authenticate or to provide, um, you know, a contract and a ledger that authenticates the reality of some digital assets. So I think all this is ramping up together. Um, it, you know, It's too early in my mind to tell who will adopt which of these technologies the most successfully first, but I think with the luxury brands, with retail, with, um, with brands or, uh, institutions to, for which privacy and authenticity is really important, um, a lot of these, these kinds of extensions into the blockchain and metaverse will become more and more important. Uh, and I do believe from an experiential point, you know, when we were at ESPN and Disney, every brand had to go into e commerce and, and develop its two dimensional digital experiences. And I really believe that now every brand will, will, be clearly on its way to developing three dimensional digital experiences of which, you know, all this before, during, and after are critical parts.

Track 1 30:42

also, again, very systemically thinking, um, an understanding of, of, uh, kind of where the whole market is at versus the part of the market that's participating. when you are developing a concept with artists and technologists for you, what is the most important thing? I've asked this question to, uh, generative artists who are really more fine artists who are probably like being, you know, interacting with companies like yours. I've asked this question to creative technologists, people who are helping, um, theater companies or artists to translate their concept. what do you as a human being, I suppose, what are you looking for when you create something? What's the most important thing?

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 31:31

I think perspective is the most important thing. the idea that the work. That we're sponsoring, producing, creating allows people to see a new perspective, and it's not just the virtuosity of creating the work. It's something provokes or that makes you think differently, or that, um, that has a purpose besides, you know, Just being, a lot of just, you know, Hey, we can do this. So we're going to put some projectors at a wall and sync it up to music or something, or there's a lot of, Hey, we're just going to do this code and, you know, write all this stuff in this language and align it with the weather. But it's when someone comes up with something more interesting to show, you know, the effect of technology on our society or, What the ancient technique, you know, looks like in a new context or, um, you know, how you can take someone coming into a hospital or a stressful situation and change their perspective from, you know, confusion and fear into confidence and, and comfort. So

Track 1 32:36

Yeah. Yeah. And what, I mean, like in that context, I'm just imagining, have you observed any unexpected or surprising reactions, like in real time, going into your spaces? Have you seen the response? And can you tell us a little bit about? That

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 32:50

definitely it's just the simplest ones, really the Salesforce waterfall or the Redwood forest in the Salesforce lobbies that we have been in there observing and, and. Doing some, um, you know, observation and it's just startling to watch how people just walk into these spaces and we felt it ourselves. But you just see people stop and just, ah, just take a deep breath. It feels like they're really in the forest, you know, in the hustle and bustle of every day, crazy afternoon, you can just all of a sudden feel like you're somewhere else. And, you know, bringing the power of nature into A built environment lobby can really produce calming effects on people. And we've also in that same regard had with the Salesforce waterfall, people walk by and just stop, they're stunned. They can't tell if it's real or if it's an illusion. They, they think Salesforce is wasting water. There were all these complaints and calling, uh, you know, Salesforce to say that, you know, there was, the rumor was that they were wasting incredible amounts of water. So, These kind of reactions where it's a suspension of disbelief. And it's not just a shock value thing. It's actually, you know, it's something that can calm you or surprise you or, you know, just give you a new perspective.

Track 1 34:02

Mm. Like a refreshing, sort of respite from whatever is going on.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 34:08

Definitely.

Track 1 34:09

can you share any upcoming projects that you have that you're excited about? I mean, a lot of times people can't share and so I'm not asking for that, but like. Is there anything coming up that you're excited about and can you talk

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 34:21

I'm definitely excited about what I mentioned earlier is the idea of the, branded avatar that's infused with, uh, with conversational AI capabilities and how that interacts with the physical world as well as the metaverse. So, there are a couple of projects upcoming we have on that. And I thank you. Yeah. All I'll say on that is that we think it's, it's a exciting path forward for digital branding and, and marketing, which is the background that, you know, that we both shared, uh, in, in our ESPN days, and, you know, we've seen it go from broadcast to, to web to interactivity, but I think the idea of now going into dimensionality and conversation is it offers a whole new, new landscape for digital branding.

Track 1 35:06

it'll be really fun to research. what that means. Like, what does it mean for somebody to show up in be informative and compassionate and to hit the right tone, you know, so that when you create the AI, it's, it's flowing with the individual that they're dealing with.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 35:21

Right, and it's important to really take it step by step and to to be able to adjust on the fly because these are unknown territories. It is an emerging technology, you know, if left to the people doing the programming, it might not hit the right note. It's left to the, you know, the marketing people coming out of online advertising. It might not hit the right note. So it really has to be looked at holistically. And, you know, the bar is very low in a lot of these experiences. Um, Yeah. If you've been on the phone with a bank or an airline or Amazon trying to resolve a problem, it's absolutely hideous and people are just reading from a script and then they have to go back and email someone else and some other customer service center. So I think the idea of using these technologies to smooth out the bumps, The initial hurdles are not too high. I think it's it's important to take it step by step, though, because there are risks with bias and their risks with, you know, the technology, uh, going awry, if not guided properly by holistic thinkers.

Track 1 36:21

Exactly. And so, you know, it, it, it, whereas at Macau, you, or your interaction and your collaboration with the artist was important. In this particular instance, it might be a psychologist or, or, uh, you know, a nurse practitioner or somebody who has real life experience that they can kind of impart to create. Sort of hitting the right notes

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 36:44

Exactly. Yep. And in fact, you know, we have talked to a child psychologist and, you know, to inform those, those experiences that we were talking about previously, just really trying to triangulate on the different elements that are required to, to create the right tone, the right emotion, the right words, the right, kind of overall conversation level that you would have in those contexts.

Track 1 37:06

Yeah, that makes sense. I always ask this question in these interviews that I'm doing and it's really, it's really about you. Um, are there lessons from your own journey? Cause you've had a very interesting journey from a petroleum engineer to working at Patagonia and then Chiat Day and, and then in the startup that sort of took you in this direction of being sort of a digital pioneer. Um, what advice would you give to 19 year old Peter?

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 37:34

19 year old Peter. Wow, that would be, I don't think he would have listened, but I think I would have said that, you know, follow your, uh, where you feel most strongest in your passion for your career. So if you are a scientist, you know, go deep in it. If you are into technology, go deep in it. If you're an artist, go deep in it. I think, um, the discipline of spending, you know, five or six years focused on something that you're good at, Can really pay off, uh, later through your career. a lot of young people I see, and, you know, I probably did this a little bit myself is change pathway, you know, when they do something for two or three years and they do something else, but I really think there's value in becoming.

Track 1 38:18

You know, confident and an expert in that, which, that, which drives you. And then from there, anything is possible. for you, what was that? What were the things that you were really good at that you really drilled down into? Because it sounds like you're saying maybe you didn't do the advice that you're giving, but I bet you did on a certain level. Like, reflecting backwards, what would you say? I feel that I did drive down onto what I was passionate about, and it really was the combination of, of, uh, earth sciences and business. And I think you know, the ironic thing is going from the petroleum industry to Patagonia, which is staunchly, Uh, against the petroleum industry in most cases.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 38:56

So, but the combination of it, for me, it was more about a holistic understanding of, you know, earth systems, and then realizing how valuable that is to, to us as, as humanity, and then focusing, uh, my business on a combination of, you know, affecting positive business, uh, but just understanding it in the context of, of where we are and who we are. you know, this business background I have, um, has really led me straight into technology just because the time that we're all doing business, obviously technology was one of the main elements of business. So, you know, the onset of e commerce, the onset of the internet, um, the idea of mobile first became hugely important. Now, you know, digital first, and then now it's all these emerging technologies overlaid across. The rest of the technology infrastructure. So, you know, to me, technology was just the tool set, but really the idea was this, you know, the system of the planet earth and the system of a company that could actually make some positive change, uh, you know, for, for our environment and ourselves was the driving factor.

Track 1 40:01

Mm hmm. And it's thematically comes through in the work that you've done in the, in the set of, um, assets that you created that makes these kinds of installations more accessible to more companies. And it is very driven by nature, it seems, which is kind of interesting as well.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 40:16

Exactly. That's the output is we, you know, half our work is based on, uh, enhanced experiences within nature and the other half is on, you know, the respect and for the innovation of art and, and it's all enabled by, by these kinds of technology platforms that, that we're working with.

Track 1 40:32

the, the journey that you've had, it's, it's, uh, it's amazing because you've kind of been like in the room, you know what I mean? When, when some big ideas, maybe we're little tiny seeds and you watch them grow, right? Okay.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 40:48

I feel like it. Yeah, there's a bit of that Forrest Gump going on where I have been in the room and so many amazing decisions have happened in the room with, you know, Adam Morgan and Lee Clow talking about the future of technology and alienation. Been in the room with Yvon Chouinard talking about, you know, Hey, you know, what if business actually included you know, pollution is part of the negative effect. Or, you know, how do we think about business. Unlike an investment banker, unlike a venture capitalist and think of it more in terms of, you know, the passion for, for the planet earth, I've been in all those meetings and, you know, a meeting with Michael Eisner, I never I'd never seen, I'd only seen him on the cover of Forbes before wearing a Mickey mouse necktie and thought he sounded like such a fun smiling guy, but in a real meeting together with Michael Eisner, and he was like hardcore Brooklyn accent, like using the F word every couple of sentences, you know, there's some, Some

Track 1 41:39

I remember.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 41:40

Some fascinating moments, Bob

Track 1 41:42

Yeah.

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 41:43

yeah,

Track 1 41:44

Yeah. And then all the way, all the way to the, the work with, um, the sphere. I

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 41:49

right to exactly to the sphere and, you know, even beyond that, now we're working with people, a whole team of people, X NVIDIA, a woman who was elected as one of the key AI influencers. Uh, who's used to come out of the robotics division of NVIDIA and we're working with people, uh, you know, immense talent background, thinking about the next generation of these, these AI generated conversations coming out of, you know, three dimensional gaming characters. So it really is great to just stay on, stay on the tip of what's happening in the world.

Track 1 42:21

Yeah. And you're there. Well, Peter, I really appreciate the time you've given us today telling us your story. It's a real unique one in the context of the other folks that I've talked to, because. All through, you've been a business person who had a sort of a unique set of, uh, kind of sensitivities that permitted you to collaborate in the way that you do. And collaboration is so important in this space of, um, art and technology. I think, um, I just want to wish you all the

Lee Ann 42:48

best with C Fire and, with

Track 1 42:51

all your collaborators and all the companies that you're, you know, helping to kind of bring into this new world of, you know, technological potential and, um, you know, maybe you could come back and talk to us again

squadcaster-g836_1_04-15-2024_100350 43:02

Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Lee Ann. It's my pleasure to